My point was more that the JWs rationalize that Jesus could be nothing more than a man because that was all that was required and God's law requires an eye-for-eye justice. Which is utter and complete nonsense.
jonathan dough
JoinedPosts by jonathan dough
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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Need good exit story for African/American L.A. newspaper - yours?
by Dogpatch inanyone (particularly african/americans) have a good exit story to tell the the people of los angeles?
we need someone pronto.
email me back at [email protected].
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jonathan dough
This is important. Not too often the press wants to go there, the cult factor.
Can anyone help this guy out? You could be saving lives. Step up to the plate!
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
There was no original sin and there was no need for a sacrifice. Therefore, there is no equality and Christ's life was wasted.
Another Satanist named Robdar?
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a thought about copyrighted materials
by actage ini am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.
and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.
but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.
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jonathan dough
"A 1961 Copyright Office study found that fewer than 15% of all registered copyrights were renewed. For books, the figure was even lower: 7%."
Wow, but what time frame are we talking about? 300 years?
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a thought about copyrighted materials
by actage ini am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.
and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.
but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.
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jonathan dough
Only one word? Really? Are you positive?
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34
a thought about copyrighted materials
by actage ini am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.
and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.
but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.
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jonathan dough
How about the fairly common practice I've seen on this site of posting entire articles from a WT, Awake! or KM?
Does this constitute "fair use"?
Not without some kind of comment or analysis or discussion. Just posting would be a violation. One of the "fair-use" factors the courts take under consideration is "purpose." And favored purposes are comment and criticism. Other factors are balanced. Of course if the WTS knows about it and allows it to continue they might at some point waive their right to complain, a type of implied consent, MAYBE.
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a thought about copyrighted materials
by actage ini am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.
and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.
but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.
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jonathan dough
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/182812/1/Dictionary-Of-Biblical-Imagery-PDF
the entire book is available on a link with that post and the book is copyright 1998 from Intervarsity Press
Hmmm ... well, at first glance it seems doubtful that the poster of this link violated anyone's copyright. But it is an area of law that is still a bit vague. I read recently that Murdoch is threatening to sue Google to try and remove links to Murdoch's site, or something to that effect. But for the most part it is nonactionable that I can tell .....
On the other hand I just don't know because the site that hosts the files seems to be impinging on those rights. After all, why would the authors offer it as a free download there if they are selling it on Amazon.com? So it would be analogous to illegal file sharing of music. Maybe it is illegal if those files shouldn't be up there in the first place. How is that for a non-answer?
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34
a thought about copyrighted materials
by actage ini am very new to this board and have already have ready a post mentioning copyright laws in japan.
and have seen the full text of a non-watchtower book be made free to users here.. now i don't mind watchtower magazines being made free here because jws give away their literature all the time anyways.
but when i see a book being offered that must be purchased normally on amazon or waldenbooks i get a little mad.. say someone who visits this board works at a book seller or printer/publisher.
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jonathan dough
At least you know how to find wikipedia. That's a plus.
Well, I suppose if you go back far enough in time you would be correct if you look at all books published but your statement seemed a bit vague and misleading; a bit sweeping. Identifying the window would have clarified things. Someone could unwittingly think that, say, most books published during the 20 years prior to 1964 are in the public domain which probably is not correct. And with respect to what "most" means, are we dealing with sheer numbers? Does anyone know how many books were published before 1964? That fall within the applicable copyright laws?
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189
How much was Christ's ransom sacrifice? Equal to Adam?
by jonathan dough inhow much was the ransom?
gods justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the first adam and jesus, the second adam.
gods gift required more.
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jonathan dough
How much was the ransom? God’s justice did not require an exact equivalent man-for-man sacrifice between the First Adam and Jesus, the Second Adam. God’s gift required more.
Reducing Jesus Christ to a mere man and nothing more is, among other things, essential to the Jehovah's Witnesses’ religious philosophy. They do this in part by arguing that God’s law requires a strictly equivalent human ransom (Jesus) to compensate for Adam’s sin of disobedience, restore the balance and reinstate the right to perfect human life on earth. Their rationale, however, is flawed for numerous reasons. The Jehovah's Witnesses write:
One of the main reasons why Jesus came to earth also has a direct bearing on the Trinity. The Bible states: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all” (1 Timothy 2:5,6).
Jesus, no more and no less than a perfect human, became a ransom that compensated exactly for what Adam lost - the right to perfect human life on earth. So Jesus could rightly be called “the last Adam” by the apostle Paul, who said in the same context: “Just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.” (1 Corinthians 15:22, 45) The perfect human life of Jesus was the “corresponding ransom” required by divine justice - no more, no less. A basic principle even of human justice is that the price paid should fit the wrong committed.
If Jesus, however, were part of a Godhead, the ransom price would have been infinitely higher than what God’s own law required. (Exodus 21:23-25; Leviticus 24:19-21) It was only a perfect human, Adam, who sinned in Eden, not God. So the ransom, to be truly in line with God’s justice, had to be strictly an equivalent - a perfect human, “the last Adam.” (Should You Believe, Chapter 6)
The Jehovah's Witnesses are greatly mistaken. First, a literal translation of 1 Timothy 2:6 states that Christ Jesus gave “…Himself a ransom on behalf of all” (Green's Literal Translation, NAB, RSV). There is no mention that this ransom was “corresponding” and the Jehovah's Witnesses’ insertion of this word leaves an improper impression of exact equivalency - one human for another mirrored human, no more.
Secondly, the Jehovah's Witnesses erroneously teach that God’s justice necessitates an exact human-for-human match, quoting Exodus 21:23-25 and Leviticus 24:19-21, the old Mosaic Law, a pre-Christian standard of justice requiring an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth as just punishment. But Christians are not subject to the Mosaic Law, and the Jehovah‘s Witnesses know this. Jesus nailed the Law to the cross and specifically rejected this “eye for an eye” standard of justice at Matthew 5:38, 39:
You have heard that it was said, ‘an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;…
Third, the Jehovah's Witnesses’ underlying premise that one of Christ’s purposes was to redeem man and provide a conditional right to perfect human life on earth is flawed in ways too numerous to list here. The idea that mankind’s destiny is to return to a condition of naked semi-tropical bliss and ignorance in Gardens of Eden (a return to the status quo) where they will be ruled by the anointed 144,000 from heaven defies reason and Scripture. These issues, in particular the false theory that redeemed man will be ruled on earth by a heavenly class of 144,000, are exhaustively addressed in the accompanying treaties entitled ‘Why the Jehovah's Witnesses are Wrong in Teaching that only 144,000 go to Heaven to Rule over Humans on earth.’
Fourth, the condition of redeemed mankind shall be nothing like the condition that Adam and Eve experienced because they were not immortal and were always subject to death as a consequence of disobedience. By virtue of Christ’s sacrifice, however, death is done away with for the saved, “Death is swallowed up in victory” (1 Corinthians 15:54, 55); Christ abolished death (2 Timothy 1:10). The end result is a “new creation,” as all things are ultimately made new (Revelation 21:5), including the resurrected glorified human body of the believer which shall resemble Christ’s resurrected body (Philippians 3:20, 21), a body which is not the same as Adam’s mortal fleshly body.
The “gift is not like the transgression but much more” (Romans 5:15 NAB). “God’s grace in Christ will yet accomplish more than what Adam lost” (Strong and Vines, 77), whereas the ransom death of a mere man would be insufficient to attain the higher reward.
But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself. (Philippians 3:20, 21)
Fifth, the very idea that Christ was, and is, nothing more than a man, the equivalent of Adam, as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, ignores the divine Person of Jesus of the Bible, and His many miracles, displays of power and all that Jesus said about himself. His ransom sacrifice was not an exact equivalent on par with Adam; it was not even close. The sacrifice was exceedingly greater.
Sixth, Man alone cannot redeem himself. To share in divinity and immortality requires the intercession of the divine, the God-man, Jesus, as Athanasius taught.
Christ came and freely took upon Himself the penalty of sin - death and suffering - and by so doing He made satisfaction for the sin of man. Being God and man, He could do what only God can do: have a hold on and restore the whole of human nature and race. (No single merely human individual could do so.; if Adam could so act for the worse, it was because he happened to be the head of the race).(Catholic Encyclopedia, 931)
The fact that a mere man, Adam, brought down mankind in a single act of disobedience by eating a piece of fruit does not mean a mere man (the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Jesus) could restore the human race to God’s good graces and enable man to attain immortality and much more. Put another way, just because you chop down a tree doesn’t mean you can make it grow.
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Lets Debate the Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped income on everyone, let us reason on the trinity doctrine using the bible!.
you know there has to be at least 3 big long trinity threads on here per month... so i figured i'd go ahead and start one for november.. the bible says that there is only one true god who is god by nature, the only god who deserves our worship and prayer.
jesus taught that his father is god.
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jonathan dough
Jesus’ ignorance of the Last Day - Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge which is inexpressible in human concepts, not His infused knowledge. But did the Holy Spirit know the day and hour of the Last Day?
At Mark 13:32 Jesus stated “But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” “Son” in this context does not refer to the “God” of the God-man Jesus but the man and His human knowledge. St. Augustine offered a solution to the question of Christ’s limited knowledge that today is universally accepted, namely, that “Christ had no communicable knowledge of the Last Day because it did not pertain to His mission to reveal it.” “[One] could say that Christ knew the Last Day in His vision knowledge, not in His infused knowledge” (Catholic Encyclopedia, 939) (emphasis added).
Augustine said this in the context of the question about human infirmities taken on by Christ; his solution here too has prevailed: Christ took all of these infirmities, except ignorance, which is not only a consequence but also a principle of sin. (ibid.)
Roch A. Kereszty explains “The Word has known man and the fullness of human experience from all eternity through his divine knowledge. But in the process of the Incarnation, he empties himself of his divine “status,” renounces, it seems, the direct use of his divine consciousness and knowledge, and becomes aware of himself as man and learns as man gradually about God, himself, people and the world. He consummates his human experience in all these dimensions only in dying and rising to a new, definitive form of human existence (Fundamentals of Christology, 317).
There are also practical considerations regarding Christ’s limited knowledge of the Last Day. Not only was it not necessary in order to fulfill His mission, but mankind’s awareness of the exact day and hour has the propensity for unrepentant man, subject to death at any moment, to put off repentance and salvation until the last possible minute. This would countermand Christ’s command to be constantly vigilant (Matthew 25: 1-13).
The Jehovah's Witnesses contend further that even if, “as some suggest, the Son was limited by his human nature from knowing, the question remains, Why did the Holy Spirit not know?” (Reasoning, 409). The answer is that the Holy Spirit did know because He is one of the Hypostases or Persons of the Holy Trinity. Remember, usually “Father is not a title for the first person of the Trinity but a synonym for God” (Encyclopedia of Religion, 54). God is by nature triune and one of those Persons is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, when Jesus stated that only the Father knows exactly when the Last Day shall be, his reference to the Father, the triune God, by definition included the Person of the Holy Spirit.